2009 National Order of the Arrow Conference TOR

I'm writing to you from the NOAC Trade-O-Ree in Bloomington, Indiana this week.

There are hundreds of tables of scout stuff for sale and trade inside the University of Indiana tennis center. Sales have been surprisingly good so far and I have high hopes for more as the contingents start to arrive this evening. So much for being in a recession :)

I have picked up some cool items including a neat sash from the Kansas City area. It has a 1940's-50's era camp Osceola patch and several unusual felt patches. A large rectangle STAFF, a felt "B" and a felt "C". I assume the staff patch is from camp, but have no idea on the B and C.





Also available now is the new 2009 CSP book 20th Anniversary edition and it now has Red & White strip information and values. This is an awesome resource that is now even better.

Rare 1911 Boy Scout Pin ???

Almost from the beginning of scouting, all new scouts have received a Tenderfoot pin. I have no idea how many scouts there have been in the last 99 years, but I'm guessing it is in the 100 Million range. It is safe to say that there were millions of tenderfoot pins produced and given to scouts, most of which are still laying around somewhere.

The first makers of the badge put "PAT 1911" on the back where it continues to be to this day. Other than the types of backs, over the past 99 years, the pins have changed very little.

This is a classic example of an item that says "PAT 1911", but could have been made recently. It is also an example of an item that even if you have one from 95 years ago, it may not be worth much at all. Most Tenderfoot pins are worth a few cents.

There are a couple exceptions to this badge. The first was made by the original manufacturer T.H. Foley from New York, New York.





T.H. Foley badges have a distinct bronze look and are rare. The Foley Tenderfoot badge is worth about $100

The 2nd Maker was The Riker Company from Newark, New Jersey. There are two variations of the Riker Tenderfoot badge.





Silver colored with raised lettering on the reverse.





Gold colored with stamped lettering on the reverse.

I haven't seen either of the RIKER badges sell on the open market, but believe their value should be higher than the Foley as they are very rare.

Other variations over the years have different styles of pins on the back.








Are they rare? Unfortunately, no they are not. There are a couple varieties that are worth some money, but the majority are not.

Should I donate my collectibles to a museum?

I've run into several situations recently where people have been duped into donating their historic collectibles to supposed museums and felt the need to share some of my thoughts on the subject.

First, if you can't go to the museum, visit their website, meet their trustees, or see a copy of their 501c designation from the IRS, I would be very hesitant to give them anything. Unfortunately, there are some bad people out there who like to con people out of stuff instead of just paying a fair price for it.

An example of this kind of trickery goes something like this: Hi, I'm so and so from the xyz museum and we would very much like to have your rare and valuable collectibles to put in our museum to share with the world and be protected until the end of time. The proud owner thinks this is a great idea (he has no family members who want the stuff and says sure). The con man then takes the items and inserts them into his own personal collection or worse sells them immediately for a massive profit. This can happen in the blink of an eye.

Secondly, you should probably give some additional thought as to why you want to donate your items. Do you want a tax deduction? Is it to preserve and protect the item or items? Or is it for posterity? There are pros and cons for all these and other reasons, but the brutal truth is that most small museums don't make it in the long run.

If its a tax deduction you want, you should check with your CPA to make sure it is done properly and you will need a third party appraisal to pass IRS scrutiny.

If you believe that your items are safer in a museum than in a personal collection, I've got bad news for you. Many collectors take much better care of stuff than poorly funded and staffed museums. They are also less likely to have their items stolen.

As far as posterity goes, who wouldn't want to see their name attached to a fabulous collection displayed in a great museum with lots of visitors. Sadly this rarely happens. There are many reasons some of which are:

Museums struggle to make money which means items get neglected, lost, stolen, etc. They are usually short on space so not everything in their holdings get displayed. It is also very likely that the museum already has an item just like yours and may never get around to displaying it anyway.

Personnel come and go with any given museum. This creates all kinds of problems for the museum holdings as different people have different interests and agendas. One curator may think your items are like gold while the next one thinks there is something better out there. If the curator is a volunteer, the situation can be even worse as they probably have no formal training and report to a voluteer board of some kind.

I don't want to come across as saying that all museums are bad as that is not the case. But, please do your homework before even considering giving something away.

As for me, if I should die prematurely, my will says that my collection is to be sold at auction and the proceeds given to my local camp for camper endowments. This way, there will be no conflict of interest.

An interesting time for collectibles

I find it facinating how the economy can affect the buying and selling of collectibles. One might assume that with all the financial problems our country is facing the prices for collectibles would be decreasing across the board. Not true!

My recent experience has been that common items continue to decrease in value while rare items are holding steady and very rare items are always good and easy to sell. A few observations:

Selling collectibles on eBay is getting to be a big gamble. A recent example is a Sterling 1940's Eagle lapel pin. One sold for $115 and another sold for $175. Same exact pin in similar condition. That's a big difference in price!

Common collectibles are becoming a dime a dozen. Just look on any auction site at the items that are not selling and the very low prices items are listed at.

More sellers are selling. There is alot of material coming to market right now and I predict more will show up as collectors are forced to sell due to financial reasons.

Buyers are still buying. Collectors will find a way to come up with money if they find something they really want. In hard times, buyers will also be happy to get what they can for an old item that has been sitting in the basement or attic for 20 years.

What's it worth?

I get asked all the time what something is worth and thought I would try to share some of my experience regarding the subject here.

As the old adage goes, "it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it". This has always been the case with anything someone is trying to sell. If you have the time and expertise, you can get the maximum value for just about anything. If you have to sell quickly or without all the facts, you will not realize the absolute highest value.

Having said that, here are some facts you should know if you will be selling any scouting collectibles:

1. Age does not necessarily mean value. Most of the boy scout related books from the early 1900's while very old are not worth more than $5 - $10. However, there are early handbooks that could be worth several hundred dollars. Same for most of the National Jamborees. Aside from 1935 and 1937, most Jamboree stuff is very common. I had someone contact me with a group of 1964 National Jamboree stuff recently that included all the standard items: Jacket Patch, Pocket Patch, Neckerchief, Leather, etc. This person thought the group should be worth several hundred dollars as it was 40+ years old. I tried to explain that 1964 and the other Jamborees from that era were very well attended and everyone purchased 2 or 3 of all these items so they were easy to find and hence not worth more than maybe $50.

2. Coffee Mugs are almost worthless. I tell anyone who asks to either drink coffee out of them or use them for target practice. (I know that's kind of harsh, but it's true)

3. Equipment has a limited audience. Canteens, Backpacks, Messkits, First Aid Kits, Belts, Firestarting Kits, etc. While interesting, these items are also numerous and unless they are in perfect Mint condition, have a relatively low value. One exception is Pocket Knives and Axes/Hatchets. As these were made by several different makers, some are highly collectible and very hard to find. I once sold an Axe with a Philmont logo on it for $600. Another exception would be things that are still in their original box. These are worth considerably more than those without a box.

4. The Boy Scouts are great marketers and have put the BSA logo and emblem on just about everything over the past 90+ years. This means there is literally tons of stuff out there. Something can be very plain and innocuous, but be very collectible. An example in my collection is a pair of official Boy Scout Gloves. I've never seen a pair of these forsale so I have no idea what kind of price these would bring. I'm chossing to keep them in my collection for now and actually have them on display in my office. Another item I came across recently is a boy scout lightbulb. A regular lightbulb with a large first class emblem embossed on it. Very cool and probably very collectible. I would bet it's worth at least $50.

5. The Internet has actually brought the value down on some items. For a variety of reasons, some items have actually gone down in value in the past 10 years. Take a look at eBay and watch what stuff sells for. A Philmont arrowhead can be had now for as little as $15. These used to sell for at least $30. Many Order of the Arrow items are also down from their peak a few years ago. A few more reasons might be: Several large collections have hit the market, all the serious collectors have completed their collections, new collectors don't have the funds to spend, and there aren't as many new collectors as old ones selling things off.

6. Earned vs. Attended vs. Awarded. This is another conversation I have on a regular basis about various items. Things you earn like rank or merit badges are much more common than say items you get for attending a Camporee or Summer Camp. Even rarer are those items that are Awarded like the Silver Beaver, Silver Antelope, Silver Buffalo, or Lifesaving Medals. As with most things there are plenty of exceptions. For example, a Square Aviation merit badge from the 1920's is a rare item that should be worth around $200. A square Cooking merit badge from the same timeperiod might be worth $5. Not as many people chose to earn Aviation while most everyone had to earn Cooking. While everyone who went to summer camp in a given year was eligible for that years camp patch, many were sewn or lost so a given year's camp patch might be worth alot of money. Now if your camp had thousands of campers, then there are obviously more available so the value would be less. Those items that are awarded (which means no matter how bad you want them, you have to be recognized by someone else) are also highly collectible. The Silver Beaver which is one of the most common awards can range from as little as $50 to several hundred depending on which variety it is. In this case, the older ones are worth more.

7. Variety is the spice of life and can also be the difference between a common item and a really rare item. An example is the Tenderfoot rank pin. There are at least a billion of these in existence (ok, maybe not a billion, but certainly millions). For the most part, this pin has not changed over the past 90+ years so it has relatively little value. One exception is the one that was made by the T.H. Foley company of New York, New York. T.H. Foley only made the Tenderfoot pin for a few years in the teens. This variation is worth around $100. The rest might bring a buck.

8. Condition is everything. It goes without saying that an item that has been glued, stapled, sewn, washed, or damaged in any way will be worth less than one that is in excellent condition. An example might be a nice Order of the Arrow pocket flap from a small lodge in the 1950's. Some of these could be worth $1000 in excellent condition while one that has been sewn and washed might only be worth $100.

9. I will pay sky high prices for something I really want. I believe this is true for most collectors. Regardless of what the market might say something is worth, if it is something I really really want, price is not an issue. A recent example would be a Kaw Council neckerchief that recently showed up on eBay from the 1960 Jamboree Contingent. As I collect all things from Kansas and had never seen this item before, I was determined to add this item to my collection. It started out at $20. I won it for just over $100 and was ready and willing to pay double that if I had to. What does this mean? If you have something from the state of Kansas, you should call me :)

10. Priceguides are just a guide. There are numerous price guides that have been published and I buy them all. They are great references and will help in indentification and for the most part give you a general idea of values. However, they are usually one or two peoples opinion of value and should be taken with a grain of salt.


There are exceptions to every rule, but I hope this might help you a little when you decide to sell your scouting collectibles.

What to Keep?

I was recently contacted by someone who inherited their grandfather's scout stuff and while talking to them about it, they asked if they should keep anything. I pondered this a moment as I haven't given that topic much thought until now.

My response to this person was that I would keep those items that clearly meant something to their loved one.

In my own collection, I have most all of my grandfather's and father's stuff, but if it came down to only keeping certain items, I would probably choose things such as:

My grandfather's scoutmaster collar brass from the 1950's. He was Scoutmaster for Troop 95 in Roeland Park, Kansas for many years.

I have both of their official shirts that are pretty well decorated. I could never part with them.

There are some photo's of my dad as a scout that I feel need to be kept.

Most of their patches are fairly common so if I had to get rid of them, I could without losing much sleep. Same goes for the neckerchief slides, coffee mugs, handbooks, and equipment.

I'm a collector and probably have a different viewpoint than someone who isn't. I guess anything could be meaningful to anyone?

Mt. Baden Powell ?

I've never heard of this mountain until today when I found a Dedication ribbon and button for the naming of Mt. Baden Powell on May 30, 1931.

There is a nice Wiki page here

A great example of a local council badge from California.